Some More Dialogue

Recently a friend posted a commentary she found regarding the CFA debate.  The commentary blasted the church for failing by participating in the Appreciation Day that was held this past Wednesday.  You can read it here:


http://matthewpaulturner.net/f1/5-reasons-why-the-church-failed-yesterday/


So, my friend made a comment that:


"You know, it wasn't that long ago that our government allowed black people to be held as slaves and refused to allow them equal rights. And I bet there was scripture used to support those practices. Just a thought."


This caused me to render a quick reply:


"lauren, dont fall prey to the straw man fallacy that the battle for same sex marriage is equivalent to civil rights. That is a false argument. First, gay people have the same rights as everyone else. They are asking for a new right, a ne

w paradigm to be estabished. Additionally, there is a huge difference between the two...choice. Ethnicity and race are characteristics devoid of choice. Homosexuality, if if a genetic proclivity is ultimately a lifestyle choice. Most of all, scriptures regarding the inmorality of homosexuality are prevelant in both Testaments and are unambiguous while the arguments of slave owners and segregationists were based upon passages taken out of context and skewed to fit their agenda. Ultimately, the attempt to equate the two is an ad hominem attempt to paint supporters of biblical marriage as bigots. Its a trap, avoid it and encourage those who spout it to think clearly.

sorry for spelling, on mobile device. as for the article...we are commanded to speak truth in love. its not a choice between condemnation and love, its truth IN love. truth is paramount, the manner is with love. i felt that CFA apprecia

tion day was a way to show support for the truth about traditional marriage in a respectful way. unlike todays kiss in, no one at CFA appreciation day was disrespecting homosexuals with overt attempts to cause conflict. if there are better ways to speak truth in love on this issue, mr turner should have shared some. i always tell my staff, dont come to me with a problem if u dont have a possible solution lined up. the fear is that we will ignore the biblical mandate and decide to speak love with occassional truth as long as it does not offend anyone. its a think line to walk when we try and balance the two aspects. even if you speak truth in love, many will never see it that way. the question isnt, did a person enslaved to sin find my respectful comment on truth offensive. the question is, did i stay faithful to sharing gods truth in as loving of a manner as i could. my two cents."

My comments sparked some intense emotion and polar disagreement in others as they also contributed to the post:

K stated:

"To say homosexuals have the same rights is a complete FALLACY!!! Can homosexuals visit their life partner in the hospital or make decisions about their medical treatment the same way you can with your spouse? Do homosexuals get the same t

ax breaks or other government benefits that you can with your spouse? Gays and lesbians are fighting for equal rights outside of the church. If your religion doesn’t want to marry gays under a biblical definition, that is your right. But in a country with separation of church and state, there is ZERO legal basis for not allowing gays in committed relationships the same rights we receive in a hetero relationships except to push your beliefs onto others.
I’d also love to see the new scripture text that explicitly states homosexuality is a sin without it being taken out of context or open to your interpretation. Someone who thinks homosexuality is simply a life style choice has never experienced firsthand the pain and suffering so many have gone through in coming to terms with their sexuality. Homosexuality does not hurt or harm anyone unlike all other sins."

L said:

"

Oh Katie, I wish I could like your post a thousand times over! Thank you for saying all the things i was about to!! I have to say that people who are so UNINFORMED on the subject should probably not be posting! The rights of homosexuals are

 NOT EQUAL! Until you have experienced the battle they face or have done your research, then you just look ignorant in your comments. The problem with scripture is that it can always be twisted to fit your personal view! I would love the people who speak out so adamantly against this subject to ask a few homosexuals they know if it has been their choice to be gay!!! Just ask...."

Rather than hijack the post with a response to these comments, I decided to make my reply here and open things up for further dialogue.  I am just gonna do a general answer that will hopefully give a rebuttal to both comments at the same time.

1)  Before I begin to discuss the secondary issue of homosexuality, let me start by saying that the real issues here could be more foundational.  At the root of this debate are the questions of how we view the nature of God and how we view the revelation and interpretation of Scripture.  If either of you disagree with my views on those things, it would be no wonder that we should disagree with each other on things like same sex attraction.

2)  I affirm the belief statement of the Gospel Coalition on these things, which says in part:

We believe in one God, eternally existing in three equally divine Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, who know, love, and glorify one another. This one true and living God is infinitely perfect both in his love and in his holiness. He is the Creator of all things, visible and invisible, and is therefore worthy to receive all glory and adoration. Immortal and eternal, he perfectly and exhaustively knows the end from the beginning, sustains and sovereignly rules over all things, and providentially brings about his eternal good purposes to redeem a people for himself and restore his fallen creation, to the praise of his glorious grace. God has graciously disclosed his existence and power in the created order, and has supremely revealed himself to fallen human beings in the person of his Son, the incarnate Word. Moreover, this God is a speaking God who by his Spirit has graciously disclosed himself in human words: we believe that God has inspired the words preserved in the Scriptures, the sixty-six books of the Old and New Testaments, which are both record and means of his saving work in the world. These writings alone constitute the verbally inspired Word of God, which is utterly authoritative and without error in the original writings, complete in its revelation of his will for salvation, sufficient for all that God requires us to believe and do, and final in its authority over every domain of knowledge to which it speaks. We confess that both our finitude and our sinfulness preclude the possibility of knowing God’s truth exhaustively, but we affirm that, enlightened by the Spirit of God, we can know God’s revealed truth truly. The Bible is to be believed, as God’s instruction, in all that it teaches; obeyed, as God’s command, in all that it requires; and trusted, as God’s pledge, in all that it promises. As God’s people hear, believe, and do the Word, they are equipped as disciples of Christ and witnesses to the gospel.


3)  On to the questions that were originally brought up.  I want to be clear that I am interested in opposing same sex marriage because of my religious belief that it is immoral.  In the same way, people who want to normalize homosexuality do so because of their belief that it is not immoral.  Both parties are trying to "push their beliefs" on the other.  It isn't one-sided.


4)  As for what the Scriptures say regarding homosexuality, let me encourage you to read this excellent article on the issue:


http://www.sbts.edu/documents/tschreiner/Homosexuality.pdf


5)  Obviously, I believe that the sin of homosexuality does hurt people.  Living in a lifestyle of unrepentant sin (regardless of what the sin is, in this case homosexuality) means that you are not trusting in Christ.  Without Christ I believe that a person will suffer eternal wrath for their rebellion against God.  So, while homosexuality may seem harmless, as it involves two consenting adults, it can lead to the most long term and severe type of hurt imaginable...eternity separated from God.  


6)  I also think that same sex marriage is bad for children and society.  You can see some thoughts on that question here:


http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/februaryweb-only/2-16-41.0.html?start=1


7)  As for the issue of equal rights...gay people can get married right now.  They can marry someone of the opposite sex.  That is the same right that all of us have.  They do not have the right to marry someone of the same sex...neither does anyone else.  They have the same right to marriage as all of us.  What they are asking for isn't equal marriage rights, it is a new right to be established.  As for making medical decisions and visiting at the hospital, a power of attorney or living will can solve all those issues for people who are in same-sex relationships.  As for tax breaks, why would the government want to give tax breaks to homosexuals?  The tax break for married couples is designed to promote the future propagation of the state through reproduction.  By definition, same sex relationships do not create life.  Although, I would be happy to abolish the break for married folks anyway given my views on taxes.  Check out this piece for more:


http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5226


8)  I don't think I need to ask gay people if they choice to have same -sex attraction.  I bet money that they didn't choose that attraction.  I bet they were born liking the same sex.  In the same way, I like thick girls not skinny girls, I didn't choose that...it simply is me.  However, how we act upon our proclivities is up to us.  Alcoholics are often born into that condition.  We don't say "oh well" you were born that way.  The question isn't "Are homosexuals born with genetic predispositions?"  The answer is probably yes.  The question is "Should homosexuals act on their proclivities if homosexuality is immoral?"  I think the obvious answer (if you would concur that it is immoral) would be no.  They should restrain themselves from that lifestyle in the same way that I must restrain myself my adultery despite the ongoing battle that I, and all men, fight with lust.


9)  While I understand that some people have made comments like, what if Mike Huckabee called for feed the homeless day, how many would show up for that?  And the point is valid since Jesus commands us to help those who are less fortunate.  Let me remind everyone that the foundation of Christianity isn't built on acts of social kindness.  It is built on the glory of God.  He is glorified when we help those in need.  He is also glorified when we stand up for his revealed truth in a respectful way.


10)  Lastly, the thing that often troubles me the most in these debates is how people don't have civil discourse on the subject (and others like it...abortion etc...)  I understand that emotions are high on these issues, but using caps to indicate yelling and calling others names like ignorant, it isn't helpful.  That energy could be much better used in constructing a well-reasoned argument for your own views.  You can disagree with me all day long.  I welcome the discussion because we might both learn something, but please disagree with an air of respect and civility.  If everyone in this country would take that lesson to heart we would all be doing alot better.


I hope we can all continue the discussion, but as I first mentioned, if we don't agree on those fundamentals about the Bible...we might want to put our discussion on homosexuality aside and address the nature of Scripture first.


Anywho, take care everyone and I will try and keep an eye on this over the weekend if you want to reply.  It will be a busy one, but I will try to respond if you have more remarks.